Regarding margin for binding in thesis

[Arvind]

Hello,

I am a little confused about the binding space settings, for a thesis
to be printed two-sided. I tried the package geometry. Here are the
relevant lines:

\documentclass[12pt,twoside]{report}
\usepackage[twoside,bindingoffset=1in]{geometry}

But this does not seem to be working. I want different binding margins
for odd and even numbered pages. But that does not seem to be the
case. Is the command above wrong?

Can someone share their thesis margin settings for two sided printing
(\oddsidemargin, \evensidemargin etc)? Our institute does not have a
specification, so it is up to me. Nobody at my department uses latex,
so no templates either.

thanks,
arvind

[Torsten Wagner]

Dear Arvind,

Post by Arvind
I am a little confused about the binding space settings, for a thesis
to be printed two-sided. I tried the package geometry. Here are the
\documentclass[12pt,twoside]{report}
\usepackage[twoside,bindingoffset=1in]{geometry}

I don't have the commands in my mind at the moment. But I know it is a
common error to believe that the margins which will create the middle of
the book have to be wider then the outer margins. Please check for this.
A correct set-up should give you exact three margins.
|------| Text |---*---| Text |------|
* indicate the book-middle. As you can see the left and right size
margins have the same width like both inner margins together. This
results in a uniform look margin,text,margin,text,margin....

Furthermore, depending on how many pages you have and which kind of
binding you choice there might be no need for an additional
bindingoffset. I can not remember exactly so please use this numbers
with care but for a hot-glue binding and less then 100-150 pages it
should work without corrections.
Other binings allow more or less to bind the book which might require
more or less correction. Check which kind of binding you will choice.
However 1 inch seems fare to much...

In general, an additional but unnecessary correction looks finally much
more wrong then no correction.

As a conclusion of my blabla... use it really with care

[Arvind]

Dear Torsten,

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Torsten Wagner

Post by Torsten Wagner
Dear Arvind,

Post by Arvind
I am a little confused about the binding space settings, for a thesis
to be printed two-sided. I tried the package geometry. Here are the
\documentclass[12pt,twoside]{report}
\usepackage[twoside,bindingoffset=1in]{geometry}

I don't have the commands in my mind at the moment. But I know it is a
common error to believe that the margins which will create the middle of the
book have to be wider then the outer margins. Please check for this. A
correct set-up should give you exact three margins.
|------| Text |---*---| Text |------|
* indicate the book-middle. As you can see the left and right size margins
have the same width like both inner margins together. This results in a
uniform look margin,text,margin,text,margin....
Furthermore, depending on how many pages you have and which kind of binding
you choice there might be no need for an additional bindingoffset. I can not
remember exactly so please use this numbers with care but for a hot-glue
binding and less then 100-150 pages it should work without corrections.
Other binings allow more or less to bind the book which might require more
or less correction. Check which kind of binding you will choice. However 1
inch seems fare to much...
In general, an additional but unnecessary correction looks finally much more
wrong then no correction.
As a conclusion of my blabla... use it really with care

Thanks for the info. I was trying different values to check how it
ought to look like. I am not going to use 1 inch. For that matter, my
thesis is ~260 pages, so i might need extra space on the inside
(middle).

However, my impression was that with the twoside option, the geometry
package would give different left and right margins for odd and even
numbered pages. You are saying it should give the same margin for both
pages. But it seems to be doing neither. What i am getting is a larger
margin on the right, and slightly smaller margin on the left, for all
the pages. Why is that?

thanks,
arvind

[Torsten Wagner]

Post by Arvind

Post by Torsten Wagner
I don't have the commands in my mind at the moment. But I know it is a
common error to believe that the margins which will create the middle of the
book have to be wider then the outer margins. Please check for this. A
correct set-up should give you exact three margins.
|------| Text |---*---| Text |------|
* indicate the book-middle. As you can see the left and right size margins
have the same width like both inner margins together. This results in a
uniform look margin,text,margin,text,margin....

However, my impression was that with the twoside option, the geometry
package would give different left and right margins for odd and even
numbered pages. You are saying it should give the same margin for both
pages. But it seems to be doing neither. What i am getting is a larger
margin on the right, and slightly smaller margin on the left, for all
the pages. Why is that?

This is exactly what I am saying. Please put two sheets between each
other in the way they would appear in the book.
Like page 2-3. As you can seen now. the outer left and right margin have
the same space like the inner left and right margin together. This is
intentional. Check a good typeset commercial book and you will find it
is true. It only look strange as long as you pile up all sheets together
(like your pdf-viewer will display them one under the other). As soon as
you arrange them to a "2 page view" they look fine.

Regards,

Torsten

[Arvind]

Oops - i used 'reply', rather than 'reply all'. Resending the mail to
the group now.

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:28 AM, Torsten Wagner

Post by Arvind

Post by Torsten Wagner
I don't have the commands in my mind at the moment. But I know it is a
common error to believe that the margins which will create the middle of the
book have to be wider then the outer margins. Please check for this. A
correct set-up should give you exact three margins.
|------| Text |---*---| Text |------|
* indicate the book-middle. As you can see the left and right size margins
have the same width like both inner margins together. This results in a
uniform look margin,text,margin,text,margin....

However, my impression was that with the twoside option, the geometry
package would give different left and right margins for odd and even
numbered pages. You are saying it should give the same margin for both
pages. But it seems to be doing neither. What i am getting is a larger
margin on the right, and slightly smaller margin on the left, for all
the pages. Why is that?

This is exactly what I am saying. Please put two sheets between each other
in the way they would appear in the book.
Like page 2-3. As you can seen now. the outer left and right margin have the
same space like the inner left and right margin together. This is
intentional. Check a good typeset commercial book and you will find it is
true. It only look strange as long as you pile up all sheets together (like
your pdf-viewer will display them one under the other). As soon as you
arrange them to a "2 page view" they look fine.

I do not follow your argument. For a moment, ignore what happens in
the middle, in the "2 page view". The way you showed the schematic in
your first mail, the left margin of page 2 and right margin of page 3
are of unequal length. Shouldn't they be of the same width by your own
argument, and the schematic you plotted? (For that matter, the middle
length is also not satisfactory - and yes, i did check by taking
printouts of two pages, and placing them in a "2 page view".)

arvind

[Alan T Litchfield]

Arvind,

There is no real convention with regards to inner and outer width
dimensions. In some cases they are of equal width and in others they
vary quite remarkably (both positive and negative variances). In some
places in the world it seems there is an accepted wisdom that there
should be a positive difference (US?) and in others it seems that
there should be none or negative (Northern Europe?).

Ultimately it depends on what kind of binding method you are going to
use. For example if the book is thin and saddle stitched then you can
get away with having no difference between inner and outer margins,
whereas if it is thick and perfect bound (say a thick paper back) then
a wider inner margin is desired because the volume will not lay flat
and will be difficult for the reader push it open sufficiently to
read. If the binding is sewn and hard cover bound then a wider inner
margin is desirable but it may not be as wide as that needed for a
paper back novel. Then, if you are going to spiral bind your thesis
for marking then make certain the inner margin is going to be wide
enough to accommodate the holes that will be punched through the paper.

After several decades I have not encountered a publisher who has
required that the outer margins should be wider than the inner, but
that may be a geo-sociological issue. I am not based in western/
northern Europe and conventions there may be different. I agree that
this is counter intuitive.

I am surprised that the thesis is to be printed on two sides however.
From what I have seen, most are printed on one side only which makes
the discussion moot since the page margins will all be the same. Then
the most important consideration becomes how much margin space to
allow for markers' comments.

In your case, I don't know what stage you are at. That is why I made
the additional observations.

Alan

Post by Arvind
Oops - i used 'reply', rather than 'reply all'. Resending the mail to
the group now.
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:28 AM, Torsten Wagner

Post by Arvind

Post by Torsten Wagner
I don't have the commands in my mind at the moment. But I know it is a
common error to believe that the margins which will create the middle of
the
book have to be wider then the outer margins. Please check for this. A
correct set-up should give you exact three margins.
|------| Text |---*---| Text |------|
* indicate the book-middle. As you can see the left and right size margins
have the same width like both inner margins together. This
results in a
uniform look margin,text,margin,text,margin....

However, my impression was that with the twoside option, the
geometry
package would give different left and right margins for odd and even
numbered pages. You are saying it should give the same margin for both
pages. But it seems to be doing neither. What i am getting is a larger
margin on the right, and slightly smaller margin on the left, for all
the pages. Why is that?

This is exactly what I am saying. Please put two sheets between each other
in the way they would appear in the book.
Like page 2-3. As you can seen now. the outer left and right margin have the
same space like the inner left and right margin together. This is
intentional. Check a good typeset commercial book and you will find it is
true. It only look strange as long as you pile up all sheets
together (like
your pdf-viewer will display them one under the other). As soon as you
arrange them to a "2 page view" they look fine.

I do not follow your argument. For a moment, ignore what happens in
the middle, in the "2 page view". The way you showed the schematic in
your first mail, the left margin of page 2 and right margin of page 3
are of unequal length. Shouldn't they be of the same width by your own
argument, and the schematic you plotted? (For that matter, the middle
length is also not satisfactory - and yes, i did check by taking
printouts of two pages, and placing them in a "2 page view".)
arvind
_______________________________________________
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--
Alan T Litchfield
AlphaByte
PO Box 141, Auckland, 1140
New Zealand
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz/beatrice

[Arvind]

Dear Alan,

Post by Torsten Wagner
Arvind,
There is no real convention with regards to inner and outer width
dimensions. In some cases they are of equal width and in others they vary
quite remarkably (both positive and negative variances). In some places in
the world it seems there is an accepted wisdom that there should be a
positive difference (US?) and in others it seems that there should be none
or negative (Northern Europe?).
Ultimately it depends on what kind of binding method you are going to use.
For example if the book is thin and saddle stitched then you can get away
with having no difference between inner and outer margins, whereas if it is
thick and perfect bound (say a thick paper back) then a wider inner margin
is desired because the volume will not lay flat and will be difficult for
the reader push it open sufficiently to read. If the binding is sewn and
hard cover bound then a wider inner margin is desirable but it may not be as
wide as that needed for a paper back novel. Then, if you are going to spiral
bind your thesis for marking then make certain the inner margin is going to
be wide enough to accommodate the holes that will be punched through the
paper.
After several decades I have not encountered a publisher who has required
that the outer margins should be wider than the inner, but that may be a
geo-sociological issue. I am not based in western/northern Europe and
conventions there may be different. I agree that this is counter intuitive.
I am surprised that the thesis is to be printed on two sides however. From
what I have seen, most are printed on one side only which makes the
discussion moot since the page margins will all be the same. Then the most
important consideration becomes how much margin space to allow for markers'
comments.
In your case, I don't know what stage you are at. That is why I made the
additional observations.

Many thanks for the elaboration. I finally used old-fashioned
\oddsidemargin, \evensidemargin and \textwidth to adjust the margins.
I will discuss with the binding guy, and change the margins if
necessary.

As for your other observations, there seems to be no rule at my
institute, either about the margins, or about one-sided or two-sided
printing. Very few people use latex, and i have seen a really ugly
thesis in my own lab, with hardly any margin, and two-sided. In my
case, the number of pages is 271, and one-sided would make it a really
huge book in print. So i am going for two-sided printing. I will be
leaving sufficient margin for notes/comments etc by the reviewers.

regards,
arvind

[Lars Madsen]

Post by Arvind
Dear Alan,

Post by Torsten Wagner
Arvind,
There is no real convention with regards to inner and outer width
dimensions. In some cases they are of equal width and in others they vary
quite remarkably (both positive and negative variances). In some places in
the world it seems there is an accepted wisdom that there should be a
positive difference (US?) and in others it seems that there should be none
or negative (Northern Europe?).
Ultimately it depends on what kind of binding method you are going to use.
For example if the book is thin and saddle stitched then you can get away
with having no difference between inner and outer margins, whereas if it is
thick and perfect bound (say a thick paper back) then a wider inner margin
is desired because the volume will not lay flat and will be difficult for
the reader push it open sufficiently to read. If the binding is sewn and
hard cover bound then a wider inner margin is desirable but it may not be as
wide as that needed for a paper back novel. Then, if you are going to spiral
bind your thesis for marking then make certain the inner margin is going to
be wide enough to accommodate the holes that will be punched through the
paper.
After several decades I have not encountered a publisher who has required
that the outer margins should be wider than the inner, but that may be a
geo-sociological issue. I am not based in western/northern Europe and
conventions there may be different. I agree that this is counter intuitive.
I am surprised that the thesis is to be printed on two sides however. From
what I have seen, most are printed on one side only which makes the
discussion moot since the page margins will all be the same. Then the most
important consideration becomes how much margin space to allow for markers'
comments.
In your case, I don't know what stage you are at. That is why I made the
additional observations.

Many thanks for the elaboration. I finally used old-fashioned
\oddsidemargin, \evensidemargin and \textwidth to adjust the margins.
I will discuss with the binding guy, and change the margins if
necessary.
As for your other observations, there seems to be no rule at my
institute, either about the margins, or about one-sided or two-sided
printing. Very few people use latex, and i have seen a really ugly
thesis in my own lab, with hardly any margin, and two-sided. In my
case, the number of pages is 271, and one-sided would make it a really
huge book in print. So i am going for two-sided printing. I will be
leaving sufficient margin for notes/comments etc by the reviewers.
regards,
arvind

having no rules might often be a good idea. Have a look at many of the
rules used in US universities, they often go for the least common
denominator (if that is even a term in English), totally ruining the
look of the thesis.

I like the idea of having guidelines for those who does not know what to
do, but if they like to experiment with margins, fonts etc. (and have
the talent for it), they should be able to. I've seen a few VERY good
looking thesis which would never have happened if these strict rules
were enforced.

/daleif

[Torsten Wagner]

Hi Arvind,

sorry for my late reply, I was absent for the last two days.

Post by Arvind
I do not follow your argument. For a moment, ignore what happens in
the middle, in the "2 page view". The way you showed the schematic in
your first mail, the left margin of page 2 and right margin of page 3
are of unequal length. Shouldn't they be of the same width by your own
argument, and the schematic you plotted? (For that matter, the middle
length is also not satisfactory - and yes, i did check by taking
printouts of two pages, and placing them in a "2 page view".)

I do not know what happend to the schematic during the mail process.
However, it was intended to depict the same length for the left margin
of page 2 and the right margin of page 3.
Please find below a more detailed explanation:

Lets give numbers to the margins to avoid confusion:

1 2 3 4
|------| Text |---*---| Text |------|
* indicate the later book-middle.
An example would be
if margin 1 and margin 4 are 1.5 inch
then margin 2 and margin 3 are 0.75 inch which gives together 1.5 inch.

As mentioned later by Alan, the rule I like to describe might be
different from major to major or from country to country. So fare it was
the only rule I know. Thanks to Alan to widen my view.
The rule I follow is rather nearly as old as book printing itself [1], I
was always pleased with the result.

My respond to your request was just to make sure that you are not
misunderstood that margins 2 and 3 smaller even after adding binding
corrections. This was what happen to me when I came the first time along
this. Thus, to say, even with binding correction margin 2 and 3 might
still be smaller then margin 1 and 4.

Hope now my intention is more clear.

Best regards,

Torsten


[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canons_of_page_construction

Post by Arvind
arvind
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[Arvind]

Hello Torsten,

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 6:24 AM, Torsten Wagner

Post by Torsten Wagner
Hi Arvind,
sorry for my late reply, I was absent for the last two days.

Same here - was busy finishing the thesis, and then busy submitting it.

Post by Torsten Wagner

Post by Arvind
I do not follow your argument. For a moment, ignore what happens in
the middle, in the "2 page view". The way you showed the schematic in
your first mail, the left margin of page 2 and right margin of page 3
are of unequal length. Shouldn't they be of the same width by your own
argument, and the schematic you plotted? (For that matter, the middle
length is also not satisfactory - and yes, i did check by taking
printouts of two pages, and placing them in a "2 page view".)

I do not know what happend to the schematic during the mail process.
However, it was intended to depict the same length for the left margin of
page 2 and the right margin of page 3.

You did indicate the same length for both left and right margins, in
the schematic in your earlier mail. And i understood it that way. But
you assumed, *incorrectly*, that the geometry package was giving the
same left and right margins for me, and i was complaining about that.
The geometry package was NOT doing that. When provided with the
twoside option, it was giving a longer right margin, and shorter left
margin, for all pages. I was complaining about that.

After going through the entire geometry manual carefully, it is clear
to me why that happened. When provided with the twoside option, the
geometry package provides a 2:3 ratio of left to right margins.
Technically,

marginratio={2:3, 2:3}

where the first number denotes the horizontal margin ratio, and the
second, the vertical margin ratio.

Hence i was getting the right margin longer. I do not know the logic
behind this ratio. Hope this helps someone who turns to this thread
with the same doubt. I should have carefully read the manual earlier,
but i was hard pressed for time.

As for my thesis, i chucked the geometry package, and set about
adjusting the margins using \oddsidemargin, \evensidemargin and
\textwidth.

Post by Torsten Wagner
   1           2   3           4
|------| Text |---*---| Text |------|
* indicate the later book-middle.
An example would be
if margin 1 and margin 4 are 1.5 inch
then margin 2 and margin 3 are 0.75 inch which gives together 1.5 inch.
As mentioned later by Alan, the rule I like to describe might be different
from major to major or from country to country. So fare it was the only rule
I know. Thanks to Alan to widen my view.
The rule I follow is rather nearly as old as book printing itself [1], I was
always pleased with the result.
My respond to your request was just to make sure that you are not
misunderstood that margins 2 and 3 smaller even after adding binding
corrections. This was what happen to me when I came the first time along
this. Thus, to say, even with binding correction margin 2 and 3 might still
be smaller then margin 1 and 4.
Hope now my intention is more clear.

As i explained above, i understood what you were saying, and i do
agree with you. Only you misunderstood what i was complaining about,
and i was trying to clarify that. I was complaining about margins 1
and 4 being unequal on all pages. Maybe i did not express it very
clearly the first time. Hope it is clear now.

Thanks for the reference and all the help.

regards,
arvind